Host: Welcome back to another exciting episode of Between 2 Servers I'm your host Hayden and I'm here with uh Chris Carrier it's really nice to meet you.

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Guest: pleasure to meet you good to see you

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Host: yeah yeah

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Host: So Chris you're a speaker here

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Guest: I am

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Host: your talk mentions human Center dev ops is that like saying like a user-friendly torture chamber or am I missing something

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Guest: Um no it's not quite an orphan crushing machine, like we're trying to avoid that.You got an existing inertia in the system.

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Host: and how's that going so far

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Guest: it's going pretty good

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Host: Okay

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Host: You've been in tech for 20 years at what point did you realize your entire career would just be explaining to executives why things should take five minutes actually take six months.

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Guest: Oh wow, um....that must have been like 2008

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Host: (nodding head) pretty early on....yeah pretty early on in your careerthat's good, yeah that's a good......it says that, your bio says that, you're committed to having a good time while getting work done.

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Guest: Correct.

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Host: Is that what you tell yourself when you're staring at a Kubernetes log at 3:00am, or is there actual evidence of this phenomenon?

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Guest: well see my one of my secrets is I try not to use Kubernetes if I can I can help it so......

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Host: Okay....anti Kubernetes. Do you put your chaos engineering principles into practice by intentionally breaking production, or does that just happen naturally whenever you deploy?

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Guest: uh it's really a combination of the two that's part of you know your baseline assessment.When you're getting into chaos engineering is how many organic fires are in production right nowdo we need to set any on purpose, maybe?

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Host: Would you consider yourself an arsonist or a firefighter?

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Guest: Um, sometimes you gotta do controlled burns, 2 sides of the same coin.

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Host: how many acronyms did you have to memorize before someone finally just let you make decisions? Just ballpark it.

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Guest: oh man um 1 TBD

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Host: To.....to, to ballet dance. That's what it means.

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Host: Error budgets sound fascinating is that like when management budgets for you, is that like, when management budgets for you to make errors or when they budget for replacing you after you make them?

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Guest: Um....it's is it my errors, or management's errors? Is it a shared responsibility?uh......

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Host: He sounds like he has experience shifting the blame

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Guest: Sharing, shifting sharing

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Guest: sharing is caring

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Host: whatever you tell yourself. Your talk discusses process dependencies are those like regular dependencies but with more meanings and Slack messages asking about any updates?

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Guest: oh yeah, and the dependencies evolve and have varying levels of visibility, so there's, you know, how many dependencies are you even aware of, there's some hidden.

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Host: I don't know how many dependencies he has.

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Guest: it depends

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Host: oh god

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Host: On a scale from regularly considered to completely fabricated for this talk how much does your company actually care about SLOS?

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Guest: Oh! A lot. Yeah, seriously considered.

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Host: I like that I like thatHost: who do you work for again?

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Guest: Um I'm independent at the moment.

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Host: Okay.

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Guest: With a college computing as my center of practice.

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Host: Okay, all right independent free free agent.

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Guest: Indie hacking, it's a lot of vibe coding.

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Host: Okay, a lot of vibe coding.

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Guest: Yeah

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Host: Is that, is that somehow, What would you consider to be your primary vibewhen you code?

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Guest: chill I meanI'm just a chill guy most of the time

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Host: Yeah, yeah

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Guest: That's the vibe

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Host: Do you, you talk quite a bit at conferences. Do you ever let the beard just go?

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Guest: I do.

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Host: yeah, yeah

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Guest: This is trimmed up. It was in base player mode last time

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Host: Base player mode yeah

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Guest: Yeah

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Host: Uh your bio says you have a background in mathematics. How does it feel Knowing you spent years studying complex equations, only to end up writing YAML files that fail because of an extra space?

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Guest: uh I mean....It keeps me up at night. Really.

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Host: Yeah

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Guest: It's a, it's, it's more tragedy than comedy but it, it's a living.

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Host: it's funny for some of us though

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Guest: At least we're not doing XML anymore, it's progress.

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Host: Yeah

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Host: Whatever you tell yourself yeah, true progress.

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Host: how many times have you implemented value streams, that turn into value puddles, nobody wanted to step in.

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Guest: oh man, stasis is death. So, you know did the company die, did I make an exit, how many times we've been around the Mulberry Bush, it's hard to tell.Host: it's a lot of metaphors Geust: it's a, we, we you gotta run with an iterative design right.

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Host: iterative, iterative

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Host: fancy word for saying that you have to continually fix your problems...That you made. Well thanks Chris, I think this is really informative for everybody at home. Thanks for watching between two servers.

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Host: Thanks for being on.

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Guest: Dad, thanks for having me.

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Host: Bye