Hayden Baillio:

I need a hero.

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Dave Welch:

Hero. Let me be your hero.

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Hayden Baillio:

You're listening to the Everyday Heroes podcast brought to you by hero devs. Welcome back to Everyday Heroes, the show that's basically just like your favorite true crime podcast, except instead of solving murders, we're diving deep into the absolutely bonkers world of people who spend their free time debugging other people's code from that stupidly expensive phone. You're probably watching this on. No judgment. We've all. We are all slaves to the shiny rectangle gods, to the absolutely critical systems keeping our digital world from imploding into a black hole of 404 not found errors. Open source software is literally everywhere. These free technologies that power everything from your cat video addiction to the entire global banking system would be about as functional as a chocolate teapot without the heroes.

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Hayden Baillio:

Maintain, create and promote them. Those magnificent creatures who spend their weekends squashing bugs while the rest of us are binge watching shows about dragons or whatever. These are their stories. Sorry, wrong show. But you get the vibe we're going for here. Get ready to meet the unsung champions of code who are basically holding the Internet together with digital duct tape and sheer force of will. And maybe, just maybe, you'll finally understand why that one dev in your life keeps muttering about dependencies in their sleep. Welcome to this show that proves not all heroes wear capes.

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Hayden Baillio:

Some just rock their $500 headphones while fighting holy wars about code in indentation and GitHub threads. At 3am, I'm your auditory experience host, Hayden Baillio, and I'm here with my co host, Wendy Hurst. Wendy, what's up?

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Wendy Hurst:

Oh, hey, how's it going? Have you ever thought about how much fancier it feels to drink soda from a straw instead of just from the can? Like this? Like you gotta do like, you gotta do it right. Gotta do it right like this.

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Hayden Baillio:

For everybody who's on the podcast platform, she just put on sick Ray Bans while she drank the Coke. While she drank out of the can with this straw. Do you think that that's kind of like limited to cans or do you think like a glass bottle? I don't. Like if you have a plastic straw in a plastic bottle, you basically tell them you don't care about the world. But what about glass bottles and straws?

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Wendy Hurst:

That's a good question. What about glass jars with glass straws, which I also own? I don't know. I struck a good balance between like aluminum, which is very recyclable in America, and this is like rubber or something. You can just like put it in the wash. Not in the washing machine, the dishwasher. Don't put it in the washing machine.

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Hayden Baillio:

Put it in the washing machine with your whites. Make sure you put it with your whites.

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Wendy Hurst:

With your whites.

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Hayden Baillio:

Don't worry, you don't have to separate the rubber straws by color for the washing machine. No. I think when I see somebody that has a glass bottle like Coke or something like that, and they have a straw in it, I instantly think that person is at least 12 levels cooler than me. Their mindset, they're on a beach right now. They're on a beach drinking this thing. They're in a cabana down in Tijuana just having a good time in their mind. Right. So I love that.

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Wendy Hurst:

I feel like Americana could be summed up old timey Americana in like glass Coke bottle and a straw.

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Hayden Baillio:

Yeah. And the golden arches. Just in two golden arches and the gold arches. Come on. You can't say old timey Americana and not include McDonald's. Sorry, I don't want to get too far more into host chat, but I just literally listened to something that was around the, the Egg McMuffin and how a franchisee of McDonald's like, created the Egg McMuffin and now how, like breakfast at McDonald's attributes to like $10 billion of their revenue. They didn't, they didn't have breakfast before this franchisee created the Egg McMuffin. And I guess $10 billion in revenue would still be a top 10.

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Hayden Baillio:

Just their breakfast would still be a top 10 fast food in America, which I think is crazy. But anyways, seriously though, okay. When I think about Americana, when I think about cool dudes, Wendy, I think about our next guest today. Let me get properly warmed up for this. But he's not just a brilliant engineer, but he's honestly one of the smartest people I know. And that's not an exaggeration. He's a software engineer of nearly two decades. He's done it all.

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Hayden Baillio:

He's a startup grind as an employee number one, architecturing solutions for large enterprises and consulting across some of the most highly regulated industries. He's not just a brilliant engineer, he's also one of the smartest people I know. And that's not just an exaggeration. He's been a software engineer for nearly two decades. He's done it all. He's done the startup grind as employee number one. He's architectured solutions for large enterprises and he's consulted across some of the most highly regulated industries. Now, as the Chief software architect at HerodeVS.

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Hayden Baillio:

He's leading the technical vision for never ending support helping companies keep critical end of life technology secure and running smoothly. He's a platform engineer, a systems architect, all around technology enthusiast, always on the hunt for the new challenges and innovative solutions. Oh, and did I mention he still loves StarCraft? That's right. My boy plays based in Utah. When he's not tackling complex engineering problems, he's busy being a trophy husband to his New York Times best selling authority wife and a dad of two awesome kids. Please welcome the incredible Dave Welch. Dave, thanks for joining us.

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Dave Welch:

What's up guys? Thanks for having me. Very excited.

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Hayden Baillio:

Very very, very excited to have you. Dave. You're one of my favorite people and I have a lot of them here at Hero Devs, but you're absolutely one of them. I think you've already heard one of our episodes by now. So we don't start the podcast regular. We started with a game and so Wendy, our game master will away.

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Wendy Hurst:

We're gonna start with a game called this or that. I'll say two things and you just say which one you would choose.

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Dave Welch:

Oh, I'm ready.

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Wendy Hurst:

Taco Tuesday or Pizza Friday?

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Dave Welch:

Taco Tuesday.

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Wendy Hurst:

Lose WI fi for a day or only be able to type with one hand for a week.

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Dave Welch:

Wi fi for a day.

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Wendy Hurst:

Okay. Write a migration script or fix a production outage.

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Dave Welch:

Oh, migration script all day. We already did the other thing today.

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Wendy Hurst:

Feature freeze or last minute hotfix.

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Dave Welch:

Hotfix.

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Wendy Hurst:

Legacy code or brand new undocumented code?

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Dave Welch:

Undocumented all the way.

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Wendy Hurst:

Infinite meetings or infinite merge conflicts?

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Dave Welch:

Neither. I don't. I don't even want to go. I would take the merge conflicts, but only because I know I have good friends who would help me.

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Wendy Hurst:

That's a great answer. Accidentally send a slack message to the wrong channel or forget to mute on a zoom call.

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Dave Welch:

Being that I think I've done both today, I would probably go with the call because it's going to be more limited. Slack is forever.

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Wendy Hurst:

Okay, Last 1. Fight one horse sized duck or 100 duck sized horses.

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Dave Welch:

The one I will fight a horse sized duck any day.

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Wendy Hurst:

Yeah, good for you.

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Dave Welch:

Fighting 100 anything does not go well. And ducks are mean. That's all. Yay. Those are good questions. I bet there's a lot of interesting answers if you've used those before.

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Wendy Hurst:

I have never used those questions before, ever.

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Dave Welch:

I would like to also ask. I have a glass bottle, but it's not a regular bottle. I don't have a straw. But I do have like A growler of root beer from Utah's the Pie. I don't know. Does that put me less or more on the cool scale? If It's a whole 64 ounce growler.

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Wendy Hurst:

I think with that kind of size, it's more like the jug where you like blow over the top of it and you make sounds with it like that.

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Dave Welch:

I was about to do it earlier, so.

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Hayden Baillio:

Well, Dave, thanks for playing our first game. I know a little bit more about you. I think me and Wendy both know a little bit more about you than the average person and so. But some things that I don't know is starting back at the very beginning. Dave, where did you grow up?

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Dave Welch:

Yeah, I'm a Utah native, so. Born and raised in Salt Lake City. I've lived at various parts in the Salt Lake City, Utah valley. So it's all kind of Salt Lake. Right. Like typically how people talk about it. But I also have traveled a lot in my life. I actually grew up in a.

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Dave Welch:

My family worked on the Olympics. Right. Which came in 2002. And so first, like 10 years of my life, I got to see pretty much every part of the world, which was really cool.

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Hayden Baillio:

So that is really cool.

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Dave Welch:

Been fun. I'm itchy to get back out there.

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Hayden Baillio:

Yeah. What was one of the most exciting places as a kid to go? Do you remember?

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Dave Welch:

There's a lot of them, definitely. I would say actually Africa and Norway, which are two very, very different places. In Africa we were able to go out and like go on safari and kind of see brush and the tribes and all these different things as well as like Johannesburg and like more developed Africa. Right. South Africa and then Norway. I was really young when we went there, but it was just kind of snowy and magical. And there was. I don't know if it's my.

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Dave Welch:

My rose colored glasses of being kid, but there was sleds and toboggans, like everywhere you went, and just little gingerbread houses and people giving away hot chocolate. It was very, very cool.

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Hayden Baillio:

So Norway is definitely on my list, as is Africa, but it's kind of Scandinavian. Countries in general sound kind of incredible. I've heard it from multiple people too, that they're like some places they're just like, you just have to go because the pictures that are like gorgeous don't even do it justice when you're there in person. So I would love to go. Wendy, you've traveled a little bit. Have you been into any of the Scandinavian countries?

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Wendy Hurst:

I have never made it any farther north than London.

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Hayden Baillio:

Got it. I want to Make a trek to Scotland. I have to.

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Wendy Hurst:

It's like, I want to go to Scotland, too.

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Hayden Baillio:

I would love to go to Scotland.

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Wendy Hurst:

We keep an eye on relevant conferences as a way to see the world.

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Dave Welch:

Yeah. Fly into London and then take the train. It's the greatest way to do it.

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Wendy Hurst:

Up to Scotland.

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Dave Welch:

Yeah, up to Scotland.

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Wendy Hurst:

Okay.

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Dave Welch:

I can't remember. I think it's like half a day or a day train, but it's really scenic. Or you can do stops kind of along the way and kind of gives you that. That classic feel. Right.

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Hayden Baillio:

You hear that? We're going to go to Scotland when we go to London.

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Wendy Hurst:

Heard it here first. When we go to London next.

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Hayden Baillio:

Yeah. And then we're desperately trying to find a conference in Australia that we can go to. I want to see that side of the world.

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Dave Welch:

Herocon, right? Herocon Australia. It's coming up.

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Hayden Baillio:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I'm calling it, like the Deviverse Conference. I want to call it the Deviverse, I think put on my hero nose, obviously. Okay. So grew up in the Salt Lake City, got to travel a lot. What was your first passion, Dave? What were you like? Oh, man, this is really exciting. And I kind of think I want to do this for my life.

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Hayden Baillio:

What was that first thing?

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Dave Welch:

That's funny. Actually, I just kind of recalled. I had this memory pop back up. I was probably 4 or 5 years old. My older brothers were making a pinewood derby car. Right. For the Boy Scouts of America. And we had this neighbor who was a engineer, a real engineer, not a software engineer.

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Dave Welch:

Like tangible materials. Right. Actual physics applied. And we went over to his house. This is supposed to been 89 or 90, so, yeah, I think I was about 4. I was still pretty young. And this guy just had a basement of tools and old, like, really big monitor, you know, CRT computers running black background with green text terminals. He put his own elevator in his house and just had, like, all these cool gizmos.

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Dave Welch:

And as I was, like, looking at things and kind of going through it, I remember someone saying, like, oh, maybe you'll be an engineer one day. As a kid, I tried to tinker with lots of things, and I broke everything I touched. So I was banned from touching and building anything in my house. But when I was 11 or 12, I started getting into software. I didn't know that infosec was a thing until I was 22. Otherwise I probably would have gone that route. I got into lots of trouble as a kid, as a young teenager. And then when I graduated high school, I was 18 kind of started actually concurrent enrollment in college at 17.

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Dave Welch:

And I had this really great professor who kind of helped helped reign me in and show me the ways and get my life in order. And ever since then, I've been in the industry, and I just love solving problems. I love using technology to do it right. It started out with software, which is great because if I broke it, I could restore it. And now software, people, processes, associations with other companies or people, whatever gets the job done. Technology can usually help enable it, and that's what I love to do.

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Hayden Baillio:

It's funny to think about because you oftentimes hear the stories where, like, ever since he was young, he was tinkering with things and taking them apart and putting them back together. And your parents were just like, dave, you don't know how to put them back together, so let's just stop taking them apart.

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Dave Welch:

But there were several remotes and vacuum cleaners later, my mom's like, cool. Tools are now locked away and you're not allowed to touch the closet, but all the vacuums are in. Right?

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Hayden Baillio:

Maybe the quote for this one is going to be like, I got into software engineering because I could break stuff and then just revert it back really quickly.

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Dave Welch:

Just control z it legitimately 100% it every time. Every couple of years, I try a hardware project and I'm like, yep, this is not for me. I have friends now who do that EEs that build stuff, and I bring the software.

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Hayden Baillio:

Do you remember the professor that reined in old Dave Welch? Yeah. Can we give him a shout out here?

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Dave Welch:

Yeah, sure. Bruce Worthen, Salt Lake Community College, he was. Yeah, Professor Worthen. He was there. Really funny, interesting guy. So he actually. It was funny. He would always talk about it.

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Dave Welch:

He started programming as a teenager in the 60s or 70s for NASA. And he'd always say that and leave it there. And he actually. He had these paper printouts of the flight simulator. It was the. He wrote the wind simulation for the original, like, Apollo spaceship simulators. It always bought him a lot of credit. People were always like, this is so cool.

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Dave Welch:

And I got to know him really well, and I go by his office all the time. And he was always just constantly helping me, like, not pull my hair out when I had a debugger issue. And one day he finally tells me, he's like, you know how I got the job at NASA? I was like, I don't know, you're really smart. Like, that's what everyone thinks. He's like, no, my Neighbor worked for NASA. They got a PDP5 mainframe delivered to a hangar at this Air Force base where this guy worked out of. And nobody wanted to learn it. So they hired me as an intern over a summer and just gave me the manual.

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Dave Welch:

And I spent all summer in an air hanger alone reading and learning how to do this, which is super cool. Actually. One of our customers from a big bank runs one of those still. And somehow we ended up talking about it and it came up and it was such a funny moment, like kind of full circle of like that stuff's still out there in the end of life world. Who knew, right?

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Hayden Baillio:

I think it's so interesting, Wendy, do you have a person or like a teacher or an individual, like coach or whatever in your life that you're like. I can attribute that something sparked in my life at that point. Do you have one of those people.

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Wendy Hurst:

Or No, I do. Back when I was not in tech, I had just finished an associate's degree in general studies, which the only thing you can do with that is transfer. And I didn't want to know what I wanted to do with my life. So I dropped out of school for a while and I just got like a job in data services because I needed something to do. And then, I mean, I get bored really easily and I tinker around with apps and software all the time. Not coding, just I really like learning how new applications work. It just works for my brain. I didn't realize what an asset that was until one day a job opened up in qa.

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Wendy Hurst:

I had never done any coding or testing in my entire life, but I was really good at using the application that the company that I worked at created and used. I knew where all the bugs were, I knew the workarounds. I was just a power user basically, and I got the job. I didn't know anything about tech. They were like, we don't care. That's better for us. We want to know how the application works and we'll teach you everything else. And the person who gave me that opportunity was Aaron Frost, who later founded herodevs.

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Wendy Hurst:

Many years later. We fell out of touch. And then one day he called me up like 13 years after we met, was like, hey, I remember you back in the day when you didn't know anything and then suddenly you knew everything and you're looking for a job. That's how I got the job at herodevs also. So not only did did Aaron create this situation and circumstance for me to learn and thrive, but also it led to incredible opportunities and opened many doors for Me, later on in my life.

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Hayden Baillio:

I talked with a lot of people that seem to be at least excited or happy with where they're at in their life, have a level of being content. They always have a person back in the day, though. They can also track things back to and be like, well, I think my life kind of like shifted gears. This person, a singular person or a group of people, or maybe it's two people along the way. But I always find it so interesting because mine was a coach, two coaches and that were super influential in my life. And I just think back and I'm like, man. So when you say professor, when you say boss, that's that's even awesome. Like, you know, your manager, a leader.

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Hayden Baillio:

That's really cool to hear because mine was much earlier in life and it was people that I was just like. So when I hear your story, Dave, I'm just like, I think hopefully if anybody's listening to this, go into the comments and shout out the person that that was there for you that changed your life. Yeah, shout out the person. Because sometimes you forget to look back and have the perspective of like, man, I was super lost before I met this person or before I took this course, or I had no idea what I was doing and I still didn't know after, but at least I felt like I had a direction, a North Star or something like that. So that's super cool to hear. I know, Dave, that you also dabbled in, like, you worked at the sushi restaurant, you did the chef route. Yes, Chef. I'm pretty sure it was the epitome of the bear, right on Hulu.

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Hayden Baillio:

I'm sure that's exactly what you went through. So tell me and Wendy's story of you were interested in software engineering from a young age, but, like, how did that morph into kind of where you're at now in the career? And like, what kind of like tops attorney was that? Like a time where you were just, you know, getting a degree or in between jobs or what does that look like? What does your actual career journey look like? Because I think a lot of people are like, oh, if I don't do step one, then step two, then step three, it's like, well, yeah, give us a realness. Yeah.

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Dave Welch:

Anybody thinking that and is worried they, they miss the opportunity or the wall is too high. That is not true. I make the joke that I, I'm the only person to get a PhD from a two year junior college because I went there for like seven years. As much as I knew what I wanted to do. I didn't have the road, I didn't have the tools. I come from kind of an interesting family life background and my teenage years were, were wild. And I wasn't always on the the straight and narrow with software and technology like I was a kid experimenting, just figuring out how to do things. When I was about to turn 17, I realized I'm getting close to being an adult.

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Dave Welch:

So I got to find a more productive outlet for, for my computer enthusiast ways.

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Hayden Baillio:

I'm getting close to being tried as an adult. Yeah, I got you.

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Dave Welch:

Yes, yes. There are certain legal statutes that look scarier at 17.

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Hayden Baillio:

Consequences become bigger.

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Dave Welch:

And now here's the thing though too, like if 16 year old me was watching this, I would say hey, you actually could do that and do it a productive way and actually make lots of great money as a security engineer. So don't do bad things and go find somebody to get you in there again. If you are that person or need that. If you're that person who gets someone in or need that, put it in the comments because like they're out there looking for me. I kind of hung up my shoes on that stuff, was figuring out what to do when I met Bruce, who I do credit him for like saving my life actually because he gave me, he gave me enough structure and kind of a path to walk that over the next few years I cleaned up my life. I kind of got in good standing. But that's how when I was 18 or 19, I think I had a friend who I met in college who got a job at a sushi bar. And I'd always loved sushi.

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Dave Welch:

I love it for the food. It's actually how me and my wife started dating and just, it's the cuisine of it, right? Let alone kind of the atmosphere and environment and the specialty kind of way of doing all the work is very tactile, right? Or tactical, right. And so when I found out my friend got this, I said, hey, I'll, I'll do whatever, right? And so I was still in college taking kind of one or two classes at a time, right. I was like every freshman in college. I, I thought I might be a psychologist or the job that I'll actually go into. So I was taking like Psych 101, a basic computer science class and then started working in a restaurant for, for about four or five years. And it was great. I mean it's, I think everybody should have a service job just because it makes you appreciate people who do service work, right? In any flavor and A restaurant in particular is really fun because it's a really, really hard job and it kind of forces people together.

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Dave Welch:

Some people say it trauma bonds you. There's always some level of that just dealing with a building full of people running in and out, eating all night. But yeah, so I did that and I was good. I was okay. It's a career that you gotta spend a lifetime really mastering. And it was fun. Utah had this like, revolution where this company, Latitude Restaurant Group, really came and like built up really big and opened a ton of restaurants. They brought the Ritzkritz Steakhouse, they brought Harry's Right Steakhouse, and a few other restaurants, as well as building their own up.

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Dave Welch:

Like, Mikado was the original restaurant that I worked at. And so because of that, all these really good chefs came out from California. And so I started and I scrubbed seeds and really just took the brunt of like being the low man on the totem pole for six months. And every day I left, I thought I was going to get fired. Like, I literally told my girlfriend, they're going to fire me tomorrow. And every day I went back and just kind of got through it. But, yeah, it was a lot of fun. The executive chef was the founder of the San Francisco Sushi Academy and a number of restaurants in Utah and California.

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Dave Welch:

And a lot of those guys have gone off to do amazing stuff. So I got to see really specialist, like craftsmen in their roles, being a professional. And like my second day on the job, the, the head sushi chef, the executive sushi chef, rather than like the restaurant chef. He ended came up and kicked me in my feet because I had done something stupid. And he's like, what are you doing? And I was like, I'm sorry. I knew, I don't even know. I'll do whatever you say. And he's, look, man, you're like, you're like seven bucks an hour part time.

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Dave Welch:

You don't even know your schedule, but you're paid to be here, you're a professional, so act accordingly. And that always stuck with me that it doesn't matter what you do, get into it, find the people who are good at it, hang out with them, try and do those things. And that's really kind of led me to hero. That's what's really fun about being here. Now we get to work with all the open source maintainers, which is so cool. We're meeting all my engineering heroes of the last two decades. And it's funny, they're all just people too. They just like solving stuff too That's.

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Hayden Baillio:

A perfect segue for me to tell you all at home about HeroDevs right now. Everyday Heroes is brought to you by HeroDevs. HeroDevs offers secure drop in replacements for your end of life open source software. Through our never ending support product line. You get to stay compliant with the likes of SOC2 and HIPAA and Fedramp and all the other acronyms and regulatory bodies you can think of. All while also getting real vulnerability remediation. You don't have to choose between a new feature and security. And with over 800 clients you can be be confident that your unsupported open source is in good hands.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

So if you need us, we're here. And if you don't, well, that probably means you've migrated to the newest version. So huzzah. Either way, visit Herodes.com to learn more. Now back to your regular scheduled programming.

‍

Dave Welch:

Peace.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Well, we're back Dave. And this means. Everybody at home knows what this means. After that first commercial, that little bitty break for Hero Daz, we go straight into game number two. So Wendy, our game master, take it away.

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Wendy Hurst:

We're going to play a game called Fork, Star or Deprecate. It's a game that we made up. In this game I'm going to say anything from an open source tool or programming language to a ridiculous concept in tech that we made up. And you decide whether you want to fork it, improve it, star it, leave it alone, or deprecate it, retire it entirely.

‍

Dave Welch:

This might be ugly. Yes. Let's go.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Okay. Self hosted servers versus serverless architecture.

‍

Dave Welch:

Serverless is great. Star Self hosted is deprecated. Don't do it.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Okay. Using AI generated documentation for Angular projects.

‍

Dave Welch:

Oh yes, any project.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Would you star it?

‍

Dave Welch:

Star it a lot?

‍

Wendy Hurst:

A JavaScript framework that refuses to compile unless you answer a trivia question about Star Wars.

‍

Dave Welch:

Deprecate it. Every part of what you just said.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Not a Star wars fan. Got it. Got it. Angular dev tools for debugging.

‍

Dave Welch:

They're pretty great, but I'm rusty at my Angular, so I would say deprecated just because I'm not in the space, but it's probably just a star. I don't know photo friend, if that's an option.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Okay, that's fair. A programming language that lets you code using only emojis.

‍

Dave Welch:

Oh, that exists. We have tried it.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

You've tried it?

‍

Dave Welch:

Oh yes, we have a programming language for anything. I would fork it. It was surprisingly fun and effective, so I would like to add on to that.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Okay. A debugger that explains errors in plain English.

‍

Dave Welch:

With real life metaphors, I need all the stars. All the stars.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Which metaphor? Which metaphor would you pick?

‍

Dave Welch:

That's the amazing part that just blew my mind, because I've heard this question before, but never with metaphors.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

With real life metaphors.

‍

Dave Welch:

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones like this is your null pointer. Exception would be great. I love that. Right?

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Okay. That connects with you. That's good to know. Okay. An AI that writes perfect documentation every time you commit code.

‍

Dave Welch:

Star it. Yeah, I like that.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

A keyboard that locks itself if you write spaghetti code for too long.

‍

Dave Welch:

Oh, that's a brilliant. I would fork that just to add more barbs to it. Right. Like your third offense. It's sending out a slack message about how bad you've been today to the company, you know, to your accountability partner at the company.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Public shaming.

‍

Dave Welch:

Yeah. Yeah. First it's your accountability partner. And if it doesn't get better, then it's the public channels.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

That's a good idea. Last one. A compiler that roasts your bad code like a sarcastic mentor.

‍

Dave Welch:

That's what code review is for. I already have that in the form of coworkers.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

That already exists.

‍

Dave Welch:

Yeah, yeah.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Forkstar or Deprecate.

‍

Dave Welch:

You know who you are on my team, I would deprecate it in favor of humans doing it better, so.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Okay, nice.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Yay.

‍

Dave Welch:

That was fun. I like those things.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Zerg, Protoss, or Terran. Give me a fork. Star deprecate for each one.

‍

Dave Welch:

So let's see. The star goes to Zerg. Unless I'm playing with other people. Right. If you're playing on a team game, then it's Protoss, because that's always the right answer. And then you deprecate Terran because Terran is just terrible. Meaning people are great at it and I lack the ability to do multiple things at once. Clearly.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Yeah. I've never really got Terran that well either. Honestly, Protoss is the right way to go, but Zerg was fun. So thank you for playing the game. I want to touch a little bit on what you've been up to @herodevs. Honestly, I know we've gotten all the way, I think, now, to the point where we've mentioned Herodes a couple times, but You've been with Herobevs. You're one of the longest, I think, employees that have been here on the technology engineering side. What are you building, Dave? What's the goal? What is it?

‍

Dave Welch:

My experience with Herodes is really fun, actually. So Herodes, right, started out, you know, since 2020 we've been doing the, the long term support, end of life stuff, right? We started with Angular js. It grew really big. That software is everywhere. It still is everywhere. Don't worry if you still have it and you've been scared to tell your compliance officer, come talk to us, it's fine, you're in good company still. We have hundreds of people signing up.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Every year for it.

‍

Dave Welch:

My experience with here, it has actually started before that, so. So I met Aaron Frost 10 plus years ago working at the same company, different tracks, different kind of groups of engineers, but we knew each other and we ran into each other. I'd go to NG kov. I had actually started a company the same time that he started here at s back in 2017, which was really focused on migrating customers out of AngularJS into Angular because that whole split was going on and I always just, I liked what he was doing. I liked Aaron as a person. I liked how they were solving this need of people to get out of the tech debt of a really hard challenge for a lot of enterprises. And so I always kind of just like retweeted it and went to stuff and every once in a while we'd talk and go to lunch and stuff and. And yeah, 2022.

‍

Dave Welch:

He approached me in 2021 and I was knee deep in something and really couldn't even spend the time. He started to tell me and I was like, I can't even listen to you on it because I want to do it. Just give me a little time. And a year later I'm glad because I had left. I was taking a month or two off to just kind of figure out what I was going to do next. And he called me like, let's go to lunch. And so I had not even put out a feeler of what I was going to do next in my life and we went to lunch and I was blown away. Here it is in Angular.

‍

Dave Welch:

All that stuff's like front end stuff. And as much as I can do some front end stuff, I'm a full stack guy. I would say I gravitate more towards the back end. I was a Java evangelist for like 12 plus years of my career and I'm terrible at making things pretty. And so Aaron told me what was going on with AngularJS and I was blown away because we've done this kind of in the server end, right? We've done this with Red Hat, right? Long term support for things that people depend on, but no one's ever done it on the browser and it needs to be done. 2020, 2021 is kind of where that uptick of like taking threats way more seriously really started to pick up, right? Just a couple years before that, the CVE project and like Mitre, they started onboarding more to CNAs, more people reporting CDEs, right? Like these exploits. And that all was just growing. And I'd been aware of it from doing a lot of kind of compliance work in my career.

‍

Dave Welch:

And so Aaron told me what was going on with Ego js and I was really happy. Happy for him, happy for the space. But then we started riffing on it and talking about where we could go with it and what it would look like building a company that only does end of life, which is bizarre. It's such a different type of engineering. It's a concept that never really been done before. It'd be done obviously like Red Hat huge, right? Or individual companies that built their own stuff and then did a commercial LTS company, but a commercial entity with commercial guarantees supporting all these different open source products, maybe even everything one day was just mind blowingly way too huge of a mountain for anyone to try to attempt. But also we have this weird unique error and had this weird unique microcosm that he kind of caught lightning in a bottle with AngularJS and we thought we could reproduce it. And so I joined the company at the time I joined in a sales capacity, which I am an engineer.

‍

Dave Welch:

And so I spent the first 18 months of my year, my experience here, doing calls like seven to 10 hours a day, lots with customers, lots with sales folks, you know, everything in between. And it was one of the most exhausting times of my life in terms of like just having to grow new muscles and skills and those kind of things. But also so rewarding, right? This problem is everywhere. Everybody's affected by it and. And the space really has had not had good tools for it, right? We all talk about CVE's vulnerabilities, right? Security defects, hacks. But in my opinion, right? And there's a lot of research that kind of backs this up for people who are also having the same kind of opinion. The single like greatest threat, if you categorize it in my opinion for software is open source components. We all depend.

‍

Dave Welch:

XKCD has this big picture, maybe in post you guys get at it, right? Of this big blocks all building your software. And it's like you, you write this little piece on top, you depend on all this stuff underneath. And this one little leg, some guy who's just the hero of the Internet has maintained it for 12 years and thanklessly. And everybody yells at him to put stuff in or whatever. No one ever sends about a coffee or anything else, right. And with here it is, we were able to come up with a model to take on the bigger projects and start there first, right? So we went from making a JS and into Vue and then into Angular, right? Because we obviously had stuff there. But now we're in. NET and Java.

‍

Dave Welch:

We've got some PHP projects, we've got some other things that I don't know if I'm supposed to talk about or not, so I won't. But if you're watching this and you're like, oh, I have this really big painful thing that my compliance or my downstream customers are mad at me for my SLA or whatever, we probably have it in the works and we should talk. And that's where I come from. So my background was kind of seeing this coming from the commercial side and figuring out how to do this from a technical vision standpoint. Right. I was the original kind of CTO. I was Engineer 1 for a long time, which is a really bad idea because when we hired Engineer 2, shout out to Allison on our team, she came into all the mess that I had made, not having times to do things quite right and really help clean things up. Now we're up to a couple dozen engineers on the team and we're securing everything that's out there and old, supporting.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

A couple dozen projects now, honestly, I would say almost to that point.

‍

Dave Welch:

Yeah, I was going to say 200 plus projects actually. There are lots of little bits and pieces along the way that we have.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

To pick up if you added all the bits and pieces. Yep, exactly 100%. I'm not an engineer or a technical individual. I sold software at one point in my life and I definitely would consider myself in easily adaptable to new technology. But even I could see the huge issue when I came into to Hero Devs and was just like, wow, yeah, this is amazing. And then when I started going to conferences, I just remember talking to people, Dave, and being like. And my eyes were just opened as people were just like, oh yeah. I mean we got like dozens end of life libraries, like in our stack.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

And I was like, okay, that's what we do. So it's cool to hear a little bit about. I mean, I know we didn't get too detailed about how the sausage is made, but it's cool to hear like the vision for someone like yourself who's been here from Engineer 1. On the NES side. So that's exciting to hear. I would like to know your opinion on what the future of this type of stuff looks like, though, Dave. End of life and policy and end of life, like standards. Well, maybe it's not like what you think, but maybe it's what you wish would happen potentially as we move forward.

‍

Dave Welch:

That's. It's funny you phrase it that way because we are sounding like a plant because we all work at the same place. But we are really in the driver's seat of a lot of this end of life stuff because we only focus on end of life. We are one of the few companies. I was talking with someone at GitHub who is also this way. Right. But there's not a lot of companies where we are aligned commercially, like financially, right at the bones of the structure with solving end of life problems. Whereas for all the people creating and maintaining software, even commercially, you always want to focus on the new thing, the new thing that's coming along.

‍

Dave Welch:

End of life software, you want to touch as little as possible. You want to just stabilize that thing and let it ride off into the sunset. It's got 12 years of people committing on top of it. You don't want to change, you don't want to feature backboard. I'm actually involved with the CVE project. I'm on a couple of the groups there, working groups. And then I actually have a talk coming up at Bonecon this year. Right.

‍

Dave Welch:

It's a panel. I guess we've got a number of kind of the bigger CNAs coming to talk about, like what CNAs do, what kind of weird things we run into, how we'd love to engage with the rest of the world, like people building software, maintaining software or writing tools and trying to find out if they have bad stuff in there. There's kind of like a mini revolution going on with that stuff. And it's where we're going. We're still super young in the journey. When I first joined this MITRE group, I showed up to the first session and towards the end kind of said, hey, I'm Dave, this is what I do. How do you guys refer to the software packages that are old? Because there's a million things to call them and I don't know what to name stuff. And everybody kind of shrugged and looked around and said, yep, naming is a problem.

‍

Dave Welch:

We all have it. We don't know what to do too. We're working on that. It's like, oh, good, I'm not alone in this. So where we're going is better tools are coming right now. It's really funny because we talk about CVEs a lot, but there's no way really for most maintainers to say, I'm done with this version of this thing that I offered, it's end of life, there's no support. Half the maintainers out there don't even do that because they're open source maintainers. They got a million other things to do and they just either move on or they get a different job or whatever else.

‍

Dave Welch:

But even for those who do, they can go and archive their GitHub repo or whatever, but there's no real great means of centralization saying like, hey, don't download this anymore or you got to migrate other than putting out release notes. Some package managers like NPM and Pypy, this is really cool Python community, they just announced support for marking package versions deprecated. So like there are some basic tools for that, but there's not a lot going on for people to really signal that and kind of let people know. And therefore it's very hard to figure out in your ingredients. Right. We can look for CVEs all day in specific components, but knowing if those components are unsupported and therefore start to have this risk factor that grows over time, there's not a lot of that there. And so that's a fun thing that we actually get to work on. We're working on it with a bunch of partners too, but we're trying to build out protocols and the database functionality, the tooling industry wide to allow people to say that and say, hey, we're done with this, this is what we recommend.

‍

Dave Welch:

And then for consumers of that, to be able to get it, apply it to their code and do all that. And a lot of these tools are free and really awesome. So yeah, so that's where we're going. Finding out what's in the box that you're shipping, finding out what's good or bad in there and knowing kind of your risk profile and making smart decisions and then, you know, helping you remediate it and find the best way forward. Whether that's migrating or an LTS provider for us, or anything in between, that's what two years from now the industry will look like. We'll have that really well developed and it's going to change the game in a big way.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

One of those tools that we recently acquired was Zol. Dave, what does Zol meant to do in that whole life cycle that you're talking about?

‍

Dave Welch:

Yeah, shout out to Benji and Shehan, the guys who started the company and we made the acquisition there and they still very supportive and awesome. They pick up the phone when we don't know what we're doing and we call them and say hey, we're trying to figure this out. But yeah, Zol was, was a really interesting initiative they started. It's a command line tool. There's a website for it. X E O L X like kill end of life software, right? X EOL IO is the domain and it's a end of life scanner. Right. So we're all used to sneak and black duck and mend, right? All these great tools that can scan and tell you if you've got bad software in there or things to worry about.

‍

Dave Welch:

Zol's kind of initial basis was to find the end of life stuff, give you an idea of what your timetables look like, of when things go into life, when they did. So you could start to figure out how to remediate out there. And the initial direction of it had some really interesting ways. Part of our acquisition and kind of the direction we're taking it now is to move towards a lot more of that information play of raising visibility to what people have in their ecosystem, letting them know what's end of life, what's going end of life, what the risk factor of that looks like. Again, remediation options. Some of this stuff overlaps like it's not, it's not a competitor, a scanner like Snyk or anything else. Again, it's this corner of the world that doesn't have a have. There's a lot of dark corners to hide out.

‍

Dave Welch:

We're trying to put that flashlight out there and help people with it. So. And it's a. It's an open source command line tool. There's a lot of data that's gathered behind the scenes and that's where here it is really stepping in in a really cool exciting way, right? Like Zol has initially targeted kind of the top 50,000 critical packages, which is a good first step. But we want to 1000x that number in the next little bit so that we can see really far down the stack and eventually kind of have all the information. So doesn't matter where, whether it's level one or level 10,000 of your dependency tree, if it's got something old, if it's got something that's flagged, it pops up.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

That's really interesting because we just had a client reach out to us talking about a CVE that they found inside of a Dependency of a dependency. And so the dependency tree just keeps growing, right? It's wild, but more so. Like the last point on Zol is I thought it was super interesting and I really wanted to, like, I wish I had the data of like 10 years ago or 12 years ago, when you wanted to run up an application and start the thing, right, you would pull in some packages, right? But now, you know, it's like modern open source, right? You pull in a starter pack that has 200 plus libraries already in it, right? And it's just get going, right? It's like the difference between 10 years ago and now is that now you're pulling in things that are trying to make your life easier, but you also lose visibility, I think into all the things that you pull in inside of that starter pack. In those 200 libraries could be other starter packs that are pulling in. You lose visibility. And so I really like Zol. I think it's going to be really cool and, and you know a lot about this game and that's awesome. But the next game that we got today is about things that you don't maybe know so much about.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

So, Wendy, Game Master, take it away.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

That's right. We're going to play a game called Not My Job. We're going to ask you three questions that have nothing to do with your job in the real world or anything we've talked about today, and everything to do with what you know about absurd legal loopholes.

‍

Dave Welch:

Ooh, okay, I like this actually. Let's go.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

All right, here we go. Pulling it up. All right, number one. These are multiple choice, by the way. Number one. In what US state is it technically legal to steal someone's house if you live in it long enough? Is it A, Texas, B, New York, or C, California?

‍

Dave Welch:

California. I want to say C, but I also feel like New York could be a contender in there, but I'm going to go with just California.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Incorrect.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

I know this one.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Aiden, what is it?

‍

Hayden Baillio:

It's Tejas, baby. It's Tejas.

‍

Dave Welch:

No, it's Texas.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

It's Texas. What?

‍

Dave Welch:

No way.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Texas has an adverse possession law where under certain conditions, squatters can claim legal ownership of abandoned property.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

I heard a story maybe somewhere around Dallas, Fort Worth, where it was on this really nice, beautiful cul de sac. This dude just moved into this house and these people hadn't been living there for a little while. And then he just lived there for, I think it was like six or nine or 12 months and nobody else came by. And then eventually he was just able to Go to the. The courthouse and just like, I've been living here and I've been paying the water. So he, like, got his 300,000 plus he improved it. Yeah.

‍

Dave Welch:

He did stuff to improve it too, right? Yeah. I do remember hearing this, and I.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Might be butchering the story, but, like, it was kind of wild to even imagine that you could just like, dude, found the loophole. He did it.

‍

Dave Welch:

Yep.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Good job, buddy. If you find that loophole, I feel like you kind of deserve it.

‍

Dave Welch:

I know. I'm starting to look for houses in Texas right now. Hayden. Hayden, you said you're going out of town, on the road for a couple months, right? Like, do you need someone to squat in your house?

‍

Hayden Baillio:

No doxing me.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Okay, question number two. Are you ready? Why did a man legally avoid paying a very large bar tab in New Zealand? Was it, A, he declared himself a sovereign citizen and claimed that laws did not apply to him, B, he found a loophole where debts over his amount had to be approved by a judge, or C, he paid entirely in pennies?

‍

Dave Welch:

I hope it's not A, because I hear enough of that over here in the States. B. However, I'm pretty sure I heard a story about this. I don't know where it was at, but if the debt was over a certain amount, it may have been just with someone going to the US Medical system. But a bar tab at a certain size, I could see getting that way. So I'm going to go with B.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

The answer is B.

‍

Dave Welch:

Yes.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Nice.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

He found a loophole where debts over $99,999 had to be approved by a judge. And since his tab exceeded the legal debt limit without approval, he got away without paying a dime.

‍

Dave Welch:

That's.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Wow.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Crazy, right? It's crazy. I think that's crazy.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

He had a six figure debt.

‍

Dave Welch:

Do you think he set out to do it or he just had a problem and they caught him?

‍

Wendy Hurst:

I don't know.

‍

Dave Welch:

I don't know.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

I don't know. Like, how do you. I think he set out to do it. Okay, you've consumed $100,000 worth of alcohol, you're an alcoholic. You're not finding any legal loopholes in my. In my. Unless you go into it to the start where you're like, I know there's a legal loophole, so I'm just gonna spin up a tab. Baby, we're gonna.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Was that like a tab that was built up over the course of, like, months? Or was that like, I'm gonna have a hell of a night? What do you say, does it tell you?

‍

Wendy Hurst:

It didn't say. It didn't say, oh my God. So much money, a big party. Surely he couldn't have been just by himself.

‍

Dave Welch:

If it's one night, maybe $1,000 bottle of something and you just call ahead and say you need a hundred of them, like that's a quick way to the number, right?

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Oh man. Dude, if the bar is dumb enough to be like, sure, we'll grab a hundred bottles without getting 50% down, that's on the bar's fault. Also, if it was like a built over time, even if it was a tab, that was that night. If I saw a tab reaching five figures at a bar, I would be.

‍

Dave Welch:

Like, run the card, sir, I'm going.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

To need a card right now. Yeah, and we're going to, we're going to run a card and then if it goes through, I'll bring you the rest of the hundred thousand dollars bottles that you got. But that's wild. That's wild.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

It's crazy, right?

‍

Dave Welch:

It was a dive bar called the net 30. Right. And you had 30 days to pay your cab. Yeah, somebody just rolled in there all month.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Well, it's the same dude that sat in the house and got the house. That's for sure. Same dude.

‍

Dave Welch:

Double whammy.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Just like took a vacation or whatever.

‍

Dave Welch:

No, it was for his house party. Right. He won the case and got the house and then he threw a house party and had the barcader it. Right.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Most epic party in the world.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Let's see if it's the same person as this next question. What strange legal loophole allowed someone to marry themselves in Japan? Is it A, a law allowing proxy marriages, B, a tourism rule granting ceremonial unions with no legal consequences, or C, a legal oversight that recognized declarations of self love?

‍

Dave Welch:

I'm going to go with C because I want it to be that answer. The wording of that just feels right.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

The answer is B, a tourism role granting ceremonial reunions. Not reunions, sorry, unions, singular. One time with no legal consequences. A Japanese tourism company exploited a loophole allowing people to hold non binding weddings with themselves.

‍

Dave Welch:

It doesn't say when you can get that reunion if you annul it and come back. Right, and come back.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Exactly. There's a whole New England is a loophole. Yeah, that's right.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Renew your vows with yourself.

‍

Dave Welch:

It's quite the loophole.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

It's quite the loophole. Okay, number four, here we go. In Canada, what weird legal loophole made it possible to challenge a parking ticket? Is it A, if the Handwriting is too messy. It was invalid. B, if the issuing officer forgot to say please, the ticket could be dismissed. Or C, if the ink color was red, it was considered unofficial.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Oh, this one's hard.

‍

Dave Welch:

Yeah.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Why do I feel like it could be all three, Dave?

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Because it's Canada.

‍

Dave Welch:

It's all three. It's all three, dude. I love Canada. I've been there several times. People are very nice, right? Like, there's a stereotype about it, but it's true. Like, people are very nice there. So I want to say B with the thank you.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Yeah.

‍

Dave Welch:

And I almost feel like I've heard this before, but it. But A sounds like a winner, too. I'm gonna go with B. So let's go with B.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Incorrect. The answer was A. If the handwriting was too messy, it was invalid.

‍

Dave Welch:

See, that's fair.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Some Canadian cities ruled that ineligible tickets weren't enforceable, leading to legal battles over bad penmanship.

‍

Dave Welch:

That's awesome. I love that.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Nothing should be written anyways, if I'm being honest. That makes so much sense to me, though, like, because, well, what did I do? And they're like, well, it's on the notepad. You're like, this is unreadable. What did I do?

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Like, this is chicken scratch.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Oh, you're a doctor. You double as a doctor writing prescriptions.

‍

Dave Welch:

But I have one more question.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Are you ready for the last one? Here we go. What legal loophole allowed a man in Ohio to drink and drive without being arrested? Was it, A, he was riding a motorized barstool, which wasn't classified as a vehicle. B, he never claimed he drove, but merely guided his car down a hill?

‍

Dave Welch:

Or C, I like that. I like that.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Or C, he had his dog steer while he worked the pedals.

‍

Dave Welch:

Oh, man, I like all of those.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

These are amazing.

‍

Dave Welch:

I don't like any of those. Don't drink and drive. But that's right, from a loophole standpoint of, like, just making some lawyer mad when you get out of it. All three of those sound great.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

They sound amazing.

‍

Dave Welch:

I'm gonna go with the barstool, because if I motorized a bar stool, you can imagine that I'm going to go drive it immediately with a beer. Why else would you do it? Right?

‍

Wendy Hurst:

The answer is, A, he was riding a motorized barstool, which was not classified as a vehicle.

‍

Dave Welch:

Honestly, I was worried it was the dog.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

A man in Ohio built a motorized barstool and got away with drinking and driving because his. It just didn't classify as a vehicle. I don't know why I Put it on there twice. I just said that in the answer and then I explained my explanation.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

No, my gosh, I liked it.

‍

Dave Welch:

For those not paying attention.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Those are great. I could have seen quite a few of those. Especially like the obscure laws that you still hear about, just even in the US and things like that. I could, I could see it being like the police officer didn't say please, so I don't have to actually pay this ticket. But something like that is incredibly hard to enforce. You have to have a recording, I'm assuming, right? The Chicken Scratch Mini sports.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

Well, what about Miranda rights in America? Can you prove that they did or did not read those to you if you're being arrested? I don't know.

‍

Dave Welch:

It's true.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

I don't know the answer.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

If you have body cams, I guess you can.

‍

Dave Welch:

I can see the dog one. It's an obscure 1870, like county law, right? Like if a man is brought home drunk by his dog, cannot be held accountable. And it's like, well, technically my dog was on my lap doing the wheel.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

The dog was doing the driving. I don't know what to say.

‍

Dave Welch:

My seeing eye dog got me home.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Guided the horse home. The dog guided the horse home.

‍

Wendy Hurst:

And they only knew because the dog kept sticking his face out the window.

‍

Dave Welch:

Right, right. I love it.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Wild. Okay, Dave, this has been just a really fun time. Thank you, Wendy, for those amazing games. Thank you, Dave, for coming on. Dave, I have one last question. It's the same question I ask everybody. If you had a one word message that you could send to every single maintainer contributor on GitHub or just across the world in open source, what would that one word say?

‍

Dave Welch:

Deprecate. Deprecate your old libraries. Nobody knows what's old. Save us, please.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Spoken like a guy that spends his life in deprecated software. Yes. He's like, please, just do it for me. I like it. No, this was great. Dave, where can people find you if they want to follow what you're doing at Herobevs or if they just want to connect. Is there any place that people can come and connect with you?

‍

Dave Welch:

Yeah, daverodevs.com is my email. Feel free there. I'm also on Twitter or X or whatever it is now just David Welch. I'm on Bluesky, my name. Somehow you can find it pretty easily there or also on GitHub. So probably the hereditary mail is going to be the easiest one to find. But feel free, reach out to me any way you can.

‍

Hayden Baillio:

Cool. Cool. Yeah. Thanks for coming on and thank you for watching. I hope you got a little bit of nugget from Dave's story. I hope they had some fun listening to those crazy legal loopholes and I hope you just put a deprecated tag on your open source packages like Dave said.

‍

Dave Welch:

Just hit the button.

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Hayden Baillio:

But much love for watching and then.

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Wendy Hurst:

Give herodives a call. We'll keep supporting it.

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Dave Welch:

Yeah and then when people get mad at you for not supporting it you can just be like hey these guys will do it.

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Hayden Baillio:

Too many plugs.

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Dave Welch:

Too many plugs.

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Hayden Baillio:

Okay.

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Wendy Hurst:

Hey too many. Sorry we took it too far. It's too far.

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Hayden Baillio:

Watch all the other episodes and all the other amazing stories. Thank you for attending. If you had fun just share it with another friend and be the tech hero that your universe deserves. Talk to you next time. This is the last episode of the first season of Everyday Heroes. We'll be back, I'm sure. Until next time.

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Dave Welch:

Peace.